Does suffering have meaning, or is it mostly unnecessary harm to be reduced?
In 2010 Hank said loss gives winning its value, and John said grief should be borne and lets us be transformed. From 2015 John holds that pain simply sucks and is not ennobling, and Hank calls 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' wrong. In 2026 John adds that finding meaning in your own pain can help.
Axis: suffering can be meaningful or formative ... suffering is mostly pointless and should be reduced
Positions by date: 14 records in 12 videos. The position was refined (2015, 2022, 2026), never reversed, in these records.
John
| date | how | position | video |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2010-08-27 | first on record | John holds that grief has value: rather than rushing to turn loss into something positive, we should stand still, be sad, bear witness and let ourselves be transformed. | Rest In Awesome, Esther 00:01:35 |
| 2012-08-13 | restate | John: some things in life hurt because they were important; a breakup is a real loss that needs to be grieved. | John and Rainn Wilson Talk Romance 00:02:49 |
| 2015-05-19 | refine | John says the only thing he can say about pain is that it sucks; he doesn't think it is romantic or transcendent. | Pain Destroys Language: John after the Dentist 00:02:12 |
| 2016-05-10 | restate | John says he does not subscribe to the notion that suffering is somehow ennobling: it sucks. | On Pain 00:02:55 |
| 2020-07-21 | restate | What John is suspicious of is attempts to make silver linings out of suffering itself, especially other people's suffering. | Somebody Once Asked . . . 00:00:29 |
| 2021-08-03 | restate | For John nothing rights the wrong of Esther's illness and death or lessens the grief of those who loved her, but he is very proud of how Nerdfighteria responded. | I L*** Hank 00:01:56 |
| 2022-04-12 | restate | John says lots of bad things that happened to him, like labyrinthitis, did not make him stronger at all and still make his life a little worse. · also in: John and Hank Hanging Out but they Keep Getting Younger and More Pixelated | Utter Chippy Butty Chaos 00:01:06 |
| 2025-06-17 | restate | Everything-happens-for-a-reason worldviews are insufficient for John: he has seen too many things that definitely did not happen for a reason. | My Religion 00:05:21 |
| 2026-03-17 | restate | John says he has long believed pain has no non-biological point: it is not ennobling or transcendent, it simply is. | Tuberculosis and Hank's Shingles 00:00:00 |
| 2026-03-17 | refine | John's current, not fully formed thinking: telling other people their pain has meaning is deeply unhelpful, but finding meaning in your own pain can be fine and at times very helpful. | Tuberculosis and Hank's Shingles 00:00:29 |
Hank
| date | how | position | video |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2010-06-23 (said on 2010-06-24, implied) | first on record | Hank: winning is more wonderful if it hurts on the way; hard work, frustration and loss are what give winning value and are part of being happy. → refers to You're Gonna Die | GOOOOOOOL!!!! 00:01:56 |
| 2022-04-12 | refine | Asked by John, Hank says he doesn't believe what doesn't kill you makes you stronger: it can go either way, person to person and situation to situation; John adds that sometimes, like exercise, it does. | Utter Chippy Butty Chaos 00:00:42 |
| 2023-08-25 | restate | Hank says the saying 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' is wrong. | Remission 00:03:35 |
| 2026-04-17 | restate | Hank says nothing awaits him for resisting: he has a feeling that denying himself something is inherently good, and that is just so wrong. | Something Awaits For Me in the Divine for Resisting 00:02:13 |
Dates are upload dates, which set the order. Where the speaker gives a different recording date in the video, it is added as "said on YYYY-MM-DD, implied" (derived from the date said in the video).